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Reduced Reliance on RNG (from the perspective of a game maker)

Posted 2022-08-13 15:14:29
#816734
The problem with Lunar battles for me is that they don't feel like a challenge for long term players. If you have a high stat/str lead, you can just go through the enemies. Heck even if you're a new players, as long as you can get your hands on a high strength wolf somehow, you can just spam latch and do well without understanding the mechanics much. Otherwise though you spend a lot on feet/salves when insta bleed keeps getting you. And this is nearly the only event we have.

I wish getting bled was less of an issue in Lunar events and in general, and that there were actual challenges with shiny rewards for people who enjoy battling+stat stuff. At the moment it's all based on mainly one stat (strength) with ridiculous amounts of rng being involved since to much hinges on bleed. So all that does is keep me from wanting to start over with a NBW lead. But that's just my feelings about it.
🐾Alymiell🐾
#18317
Posted 2022-08-13 15:19:47 (edited)
#816738
Do Lunar enemies have bosses? I know that several of them are tough due to owning Fearless Opponent modifier without any debuffs (charged enemies that are not prey or slow), which makes them double hit much more often when our lead tries to rest.
Dżanek
#24018
Posted 2022-08-13 16:45:49
#816773
According to "Lunar Event News" they supposedly do. I think these are the lunar enemies I lost to sometimes?

"The enemies require normal Energy and HP to battle, but the Lunar encounters may heal you more often than normal Explore encounters! There are biome-specific enemies, though they all have the same level requirements: 1 to 20. In addition to this, there are also difficult "boss" opponents which appear only when you are a much higher level. These bosses, while extra difficult to battle against, will drop better rewards!"

source
Slothie
#2938
Posted 2022-08-13 16:54:57
#816777
Hi again, TL;DR: I think it's more about balance, though Strength is still important & Charged Lunar Event enemies are the boss enemies & level is a factor, but biome for enemy is a factor for attributes of the enemy & I don't have a concrete answer for new player frustration.

Here I see a few things.
1. "The higher the level is, the tougher this opponent is to beat" - appears to be backed up by Slothie's pie chart, but I see we don't necessarily agree it feels true or that it may feel unfair to lose to a level 1 when you are level 20.
2. "generally expected that harder biomes will have harder opponents, so expect more difficulty in taking down your enemies" - from this, I would expect a cougar in the Mountains is generally not going to be as difficult to fight as a cougar from the Desert, as it may lack attributes.
3. "I am very well trained and a high level" - so this could mean Tala is level 20 and has fought many opponents, thus gaining a lot of +1 bonuses and is something we should endeavor to do as well.
4. "remember - different enemies will require different strategies to take down. Think about some of the attributes of your enemy. Some might be stompers, some might be brave, some might be cowardly... You'll learn this as you go along and get more experience fighting" For 4 in particular, I definitely noticed it was true before Development Update #7 took place and I still feel this is true.

Perhaps the following from the linked update may need to be included within Tala's tutorial: "The bonuses associated can be seen when hovering over the dice icon following an attack." An issue with that, of course, is there will be people who skip quest text regardless.

Y'all are saying you feel like it is unfair to lose to a low level enemy, especially true for new lead wolves, and I hear you there. Losing to an enemy which is lower level may not ever feel good.
To return to the above example (cougar opponent), there are losses to Level 1 from the Mountains on high level wolves, which may be the meat of the issue. Maybe then, it is that the wolf may have high strength, but not high agility, providing an opening for agile opponents (you take more damage on average, especially if failing to latch)? Or they are lacking smarts, thus unable to focus (no bonuses to damage dealt, and to the Rest modifier)? That does not cover not getting the first move due to not being fast, smart or agile enough, which can benefit the battle state greatly. There's a lot going on here. Earlier, I read a lot of people mentioning strength and I said I have been going for lead wolves bred for agility, speed, and strength to cover certain stat checks or vulnerabilities. Which, like OP stated, is "perfecting my build," or attempting to do so, anyway.

In my humble opinion, it is not all based on mainly one stat (strength). Like Tala says, the strategy is to change per the opponent:
With Whitetail, I want high Speed to Chase. If I can not Chase, I need high Agility to avoid the antler attack (bleed). Having high Strength certainly helps to get "free" damage onto them to get a Bleed Roll (4/6 attack) without the negative modifier for a simple Bite.

Fighting a Snake, I feel there is a need for high Strength to resist poison. I also think having high Agility is crucial a lot of the time with them for the first move. I still try Focus sometimes to activate a Smarts boost to damage rolls, which comes in nicely when Latch fails.

In conclusion, Latch and Strength help a lot, but I do not believe the game is designed to reward only Strength-using strategies if you want to win against a variety of opponents, to the best of my knowledge.

I think there are multiple layers at work, and if one is able to get a few of them rolling, it helps over the course of the battle. I understand it does not take away from the frustration a new lead wolf/player experiences (I felt it too). They certainly do not have access to the items, nor to the high stats, and they do not have the experience for effective battle strategies. All they know is their wolf is level 20, and the cougar is level 1. They can see their stats, not the stats of the cougar, and they may be left thinking there was nothing they could have done, which may cause further frustration. I get that.

In terms of a challenge for established players with the Lunar Event, I feel that is debatable.
I feel I must observe if I received the first move, and I will generally go into every battle with full HP since I spend time outside of the Event maintaining Healing Salves and a supply of Lucky Feet. From there, I generally do not have to Flee if I observe the Battle state appropriately. Sometimes, I can not Latch with +2 [high strength, lucky foot] and if I do not become emotional, I generally still win the encounter. (I also wonder if some are good at resisting Latch, full stop) I admit, sometimes I do not have patience. I personally feel a "trill" of excitement when facing off against a Charged opponent, one of the bosses of the Lunar Event, as they are generally high level and certainly well trained.

Also, to answer the question regarding boss enemies: Lunar Event News states the following: "In addition to this, there are also difficult "boss" opponents which appear only when you are a much higher level. These bosses, while extra difficult to battle against, will drop better rewards!"  Those would be the Charged enemies, yes.
Zeraki
#26932
Posted 2022-08-13 16:59:28
#816778
I agree with the part about doing multiple strategies Zeraki. There were times when I didn't know how to battle, and those times were much harder (first 10 or so levels of my 1st lead). Even not if I'm not paying attention and spamming moves, I can quickly lose a battle. Like if an enemy makes me bleed and I just bleed because I wasn't paying attention.

Definitely learning how to battle (which wolvden could provide more info on), and paying attention and carefully considering which moves to click can make or break your battling. As well as knowing when to give up and retreat.

Skill trees will likely complicated battling further, but also make it more interesting.
Slothie
#2938
Posted 2022-08-13 17:10:30
#816782
Just a note regarding strength: currently it really is the case that as long as you get the +1 on dice rolls with strength, anything else hardly matters. Yeah other stats are still helpful and give advantages depending (except the useless wisdom stat which is another story altogether). But if you have super high strength, you can win almost any battle easy unless your opponent bleeds you. And if that happens, usually strength+lucky feet is still your best bet overall. Other stats may get you out of the situation, but as I see it they are all secondary. If you don't have high strength, battles will be much more difficult than if you lack any other stat. And at some point latch+crush/shear will win you most battles even if you don't do anything else.

If you want a lead who breezes through battles, strength is what I'd always prioritize by far. A big reason for this is the bleed issue. And I think the lack of variety is really too bad, for all that I love the strength stat and how easy it is to prioritize.
🐾Alymiell🐾
#18317
Posted 2022-08-14 05:24:11
#817005
Adding to how strength is the best choice, all charged enemies also rely on strength for the starting move (only strength or strength and another stat 50/50). It amazed me that Anaconda is agility-based enemy but Charged Anaconda's starting move relies either on strength or smarts. On the other paw though, strength wasn't discussed when Lunar enemies were implemented.
Dżanek
#24018
Posted 2022-08-14 17:14:14
#817319
This is an interesting topic for discussion so I'll be reading through it thoroughly when I'm not on mobile, but I'd like to quickly add something.

I really, really don't like it when people write this situation off as simply players being 'uneducated.' That comes across as dismissive and sometimes even borderline condescending. Please, to everyone who's said something along those lines, don't assume everyone who struggles in battling is struggling because they 'don't get' how it works. That may be the case on occasion, but there's more to it than that.

Just going to post a quote of something I'd said previously, it's easier than paraphrasing.

Can any of you really tell me that almost getting killed by a level 1 Cougar but easily defeating a level 15 Cougar is just because of my stats? That there was no RNG swaying the fight whatsoever?

Stats matter, but clearly there is something wrong here. It's not a black and white situation where it's just new players not understanding, or people just not having enough of whatever stat I say is best, or stats don't matter at all and RNG is the only thing that sways fights.

If I can win against a level 15 just fine and almost lose to a level 1, that means that either the level 1 rolled better stats than the level 15 or that somehow the level 1 managed to roll better attacks than me almost every turn. Both things are because of RNG.

Surely those of you who treat the RNG debate as simply a misunderstanding can recognize how there's something not right about that?
Whirligig
#11137
Posted 2022-08-14 17:24:44 (edited)
#817326
Redacted due to Account Closure
Closed Account
#68166
Posted 2022-08-14 17:25:44
#817328
I'm not saying anyone is uneducated. I'm saying wolvden could do a lot better to properly teach players how the battling system works. I myself struggled early on without any tutorial, and it's something I see often in the game. We get tutorials and guides for nearly every section of the game, but battling is left out.

And yes. I can say once in a while getting killed by a level 1 cougar - or honey badger, or any other enemy with bleed or poison abilities - is a necessary aspect of gameplay. This isn't something that should be happening a shit ton, but once in a while, things will roll out of your favor. In the same way, once in a while, a Level 1 wolf can take down level 15+ enemies if they happen to be lucky and get a bleed on the creature early on.

I can understand the frustration, but in a battle system with an ability such as bleed, it goes both ways.

I'd love to see anyone else go through their lose %'s, as I can only provide my loss percentages, but very rarely is a high-level wolf losing to low-level enemies. And if they are, it's almost guaranteed it's a bleed-causing enemy, which requires extra care and sometimes for you to give up the fight. Nearly all my losses are bleeds that I attempted to fight through.
Slothie
#2938
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