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Non-Lethal Mutation Breeding Is Unrealistic

Non-Lethal Mutation Breeding Is Unrealistic
Posted 2022-08-16 12:34:36
#818041
The mechanics for breeding mutations like melanism and albinism don't make any sense. I get that it is recessive but how does it make any sense that when you breed to a wolf that is melanistic that you wouldn't automatically get puppies that are carriers of that gene?

A wolf that is melanistic would only have melanistic genes to pass on, so all of their offspring should automatically carry melanism. You get one gene from mom and one gene from dad. And it being recessive means that you need two copies to be melanistic.

None of the puppies I bred to a melanistic wolf carry melanism. How does that make any sense? 		MistyBlue2010
#78166
Posted 2022-08-16 12:45:59
#818045
I understand where your coming from, its hard to breed melas and albinos but I don't think they should change the breeding system.
It would make Melanism wolves and Albinism wolves less valubal, not to mention the fact that albinos and melas have nothing particularly special about them except a different kind of base.
It makes sense you don't get the mutation. That would be like, if two luna based wolves ensured that you would get a luna. Same with any base, it would make the games less fun.
NazgulWitchKing
#61352
Posted 2022-08-16 12:51:32
#818046
Yes I get what you are saying. And I do think that base colors are different since they aren't based on recessive genetics. Those are more polygenetics and so it makes sense that the bases are different.

But when it comes to mutations I feel like they should actually be based on real inheritance. Because where does the pup get the non-melanism gene from with a melanistic dad or mom? Like a melanistic wolf shouldn't have any non-melanistic genes.

And since it doesn't add to the game other than looks, I just don't see how it would make the game less fun. I mean technically anyone could spam the stud list with cheap melanistic wolves and make it more common even with the current inheritance model. 		MistyBlue2010
#78166
Posted 2022-08-16 12:56:35
#818048
No support

Genetics in real life are very complicated but it does make sense. This is the most simplistic way to do it is eyes, since it only requires one small square to calculate, but real life genes get insanely complicated. And just because the genes are there, doesn't mean you always get one of each gene.

This table is a quick demonstration of 2 parents with brown eyes, but both carry the recessive blue gene. B = brown and b = blue. You need two bb's to get blue eyes, but only 1 B anywhere in the sequence because Brown is a dominating gene.

25% chance of no recessive gene (brown eyes), 50% chance of recessive gene (brown eyes), and 25% chance of 2 recessive genes squishing together and getting brown eyes. The wolvden chance of this is lower with a carrier and non carrier, but 10% of the time pups will become carriers. The other 90% will not.

In the second chart, where they have blue eyes (imagine albino pups), and there is a boosted chance of it getting passed down. It's a 50/50 chance in the chart, but with a mutated wolf and a carrier wolf, it increases to a 15% chance of carrying the gene, 15% chance of mutation, and 70% chance non-carrier.

source

This chart just includes one square, but it can get very overly complicated when it comes to different genetics. It depends how complicated that gene gets. With a chart like this, it would be much less likely to get the result you're looking for.

source

I'm not a genetic expert. I just want to say that the Wolvden mutation system has been simplified a bit for the game, which I appreciate. I really would not want to have to pull out all of these squares every time I'm breeding wolves, but it does follow a general principle of genetics.

Also, if we allow the percentages up too high, things will be bred too easily. It will remove part of the challenge from the game, making mutated wolves incredibly invaluable. I know the staff have worked very hard to balance these aspects of gameplay since beta testing.
Slothie
#2938
Posted 2022-08-16 12:59:40 (edited)
#818051
Both of those examples actually supports what I am saying. As you can see, the blue eyes only has blue eye genes to pass on, so all of the offspring at least carry blue eyes.

All I am saying is that if the mutation is recessive, they should realistically only be able to pass on melanism. So all of their offspring should get one melanism gene. Not saying they should all be melanistic. Just saying a non-melanistic wolf breeding to a melanistic wolf should produce all carriers. 		MistyBlue2010
#78166
Posted 2022-08-16 13:08:35
#818055
I mean that's the most simplified version of genetics. There's also X-Linked recessive inheritance which works completely differently. There's codominant inheritance. We don't actually know what the system is based on. And really if they were tying it to real-world genetics, it wouldn't work. It would require players to have full biology degrees.

Some types of OA are passed on in an X-linked inheritance pattern. This pattern affects boys and girls differently: girls who get the albinism gene become carriers, while boys who get it will have albinism.

When a mother is a carrier of an X-linked type of albinism, each of her daughters has a 1 in 2 chance of becoming a carrier. Each of her sons has a 1 in 2 chance of having albinism.

When a father has an X-linked type of albinism, his daughters will become carriers, and his sons will not have albinism and will not be carriers.

source

If we went by real-world genetics, we would also have to consider the sex of the wolf. There would be no female albino wolves on the site (before sex changers). It would just be a bit complicated for the current climate of the game, though there are some mutations on their sister site Lioden that are 1 gendered, they don't have a recessive genetic system there at all. The genes either roll yes or no.

I was just saying that in a generic sense, the system follows similar rates to genetics while keeping the game balanced.
Slothie
#2938
Posted 2022-08-16 16:13:52
#818099
Yes. But the thing that all of those have in common at it's very basic core is that mom and dad give 1 copy of each gene. We aren't talking brain surgery level knowledge. All I said was that if a wolf is melanistic than their offspring should be carriers of melanism. That's all. Not even talking about base colors because those are fantasy colors and the mechanics are fantasy based.

Just purely talking about melanism. 		MistyBlue2010
#78166
Posted 2022-08-16 16:26:48
#818109
Ignoring the genetics aspect of it, it would break the game. I still have to No Support

I understand your thought train, but certain traits need to be limited for the sake of the economy. It's similar to Special bases. They have a very small pass rate because we can't have a million special bases popping up. They would be completely devalued in days, the same way T3 values have lessened over time. Even badger bases are starting to sell for less and less.

Melanism has been out since day 1 of the game. You're a higher ID number, so you won't remember, but there are times where Carriers were selling for 50-75 GC. Actual melanistic pups were selling for 200-300 GC. It's not so much a problem now because it has been out a very long time, so the value has eventually dropped.

But eventually, a new recessive gene will release, which will be put into the recessive gene system. It will be popular and in demand. Eventually, 1 mutated pup will be bred. And the repercussions of every pup from that mutated wolf becoming a carrier would be bad for the economy of the game. It would be devalued insanely quickly, which would probably require admins to pump out more and more content in an effort to keep something valuable, as well as keeping players tied to the game.

We can't only consider melanism because to change 1 gene outside the system, would require changing the entire system. Each gene would have to have its own coding and rules, which will not only be complicated on a sitewide level, but will be quite the learning curve for newer members.

Lioden does this. Some genes are random. Some genes can only be passed to boys. Some can only be passed to girls. Men cannot pass some mutations. Females cannot pass some. It is a sometimes messy system, with many members constantly posting on the forums looking for help. Wolvden already has certain difficulty learning mechanics with the game, and overcomplicating the breeding system for the sake of "realism" won't always happen.

Anyways, that's just my opinion.
Slothie
#2938
Posted 2022-08-16 16:37:18
#818113
No support for all the reasons Slothie already described. Wolvden is not always perfectly realistic. Changing genetics this way would very quickly break the mutie market. Frankly I don't see the Wolvden staff implementing any changes like this at any point in the future.
mercurie
#35270
Posted 2022-08-16 22:24:23
#818378
No support
Wolvden is semi-realistic, not realistic. There are already many things that don't quite make sense and wouldn't actually exist in the real world. The way mutations are passed is just another example of this. One point you made as to why it should change is that you didn't see how this would make the game less fun but for many people part of the challenge is breeding wolves that have the mutation even with the low pass rates. I am one of these players as I actively breed melanism wolves. Even though I have many, every breeding session is still fun because there is no guarantee that I will end up with mela pups. My enjoyment of the game would drop severely if I was guaranteed to get mela pups from my mela x mela breedings. And as Slothie mentioned, if the pass rates were to increase the market would be flooded with mela pups. I regularly have 30 mela x mela pups and maybe 5 of them actually have the mutation. The mutation market would absolutely crash if all of those pups ended up as melas. All those pups would be basically worthless because there were so many.
Sunspot Forest-On hiatus
#35648
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