Inbreeding Mechanics

Inbreeding Mechanics
Posted 2022-05-06 09:37:45 #740884 Inbreeding Mechanics Hellooo! So I proposed an idea along these lines back during beta testing and I wanted it give it a second shot now. Back then the site got reloaded quite a bit and the idea got lost and I've also changed my mind on some things! I'm curious to see what other people's perspectives are now that breeding lines are growing longer and inbreeding is becoming more prevalent. This proposal is based in two different suggestions for inbreeding mechanics. #1. For inbreeding percentages and possible instances of inbreeding become available to view in wolves' family trees + in scrying. If it is possible to code, I would prefer to have both the percent of inbreeding as well as number of instances of inbreeding displayed. #2. That inbred wolves receive a slight decrease in stat inheritance based on how high their percentage of inbreeding is. I propose a 5% decrease in stat inheritance for anything above 1 instance of inbreeding. This could gradually increase but should not be drastic and should never exceed a maximum of a 20% stat penalty (which would only apply in extreme cases of more than 15-25 instances of inbreeding or like 75% of inbreeding, I'm up to debate on what numbers we think is excessive inbreeding and what we think of the "base penalty" percentage.) Here's why the would be a good thing: Support for #1 It will help players keep track of their family lines. As family trees grow longer here, it is starting to take some thoughtful review to be able to determine if a wolf beyond generation 8 is inbred in the first place, let alone if breeding them to another wolf with the same length of bloodlines could be inbreeding. It would be a very helpful game mechanic to be able to check your wolf's family tree and see its inbreeding (for example, 30% inbred and 2 instances of possible inbreeding). It would be incredibly helpful if this could be checked through scrying pairs before breeding as well to see what the puppies would have. This would expand upon existing mechanics in-game to look at heritage and be very helpful! Support for #2 It will help prevent the creation of long-standing stat monopolies. Promoting genetic diversity = promoting market diversity, which means players will be incentivized to breed to more than just the same 4 studs who dominate the leaderboards. While this site is not Lioden, it is a sister site, and this has been a problem on there. Because of the two site's similar breeding mechanics and shared player base it's likely that Wolvden can follow in the pawprints of Lioden history in the future. As someone who used to breed for stats on Lioden, it became impossible to find studs high on the leaderboard that were not inbred themselves or related to my lions. Everyone has the right to pursue their own breeding projects and play the game how they want, but it became a problem beyond limiting the capacity of clean line stat projects. Myself and others found that we were breeding to the same few people over and over again to raise our stat game, and while that was our choice, there was no real way to compete or "catch up" stats wise as the profits from their breedings ensured their heirs would step far above what anyone else could achieve within reasonable measures (which admittedly is an awesome accomplishment!). A slight stat decrease in inheritance based on inbreeding will still give the same opportunities to people who thrive at the top of the leaderboards for generations, but will also create greater opportunity for others to accomplish those same goals by preventing the creation of a huge gap. This will increase the circulation of currency and goods to even more players who are both on and off the leaderboards. It is a minimal mechanic to discourage excessive repeats in a gentle way and can help address a problem before it arises through something that'll benefit others widely while have a very limited effect on those who have goals that do not align with stats or clean lines. Now to address the question of how this will impact people who don't breed for stats or clean lines! It would be unfair to suggest that inbred members of packs should have extreme health issues and birth deformities/mutations should not be related to any inbreeding mechanics in my opinion, so while that may be realism and would fit in with the game elements I have excluded it from my suggestion based on previous feedback from when I posted about this during beta testing. Since the penalty will be starting off very minimal and be capped at a max of a 20% decrease in stat inheritance only at a point of excessive inbreeding (open to debate about the 15-25 instances or 75 percent as what we define as excessive). People who only breed their pack wolves to their own pack stud instead of outside bloodlines will also not experience a major difference in gameplay even if they choose to do so for as long as the play the game, this is why I included the idea of a "cap" and kept the percentages of penalty low. They will be able to keep raising their stats by leveling up, even after reaching the cap penalty through excessive inbreeding. As stated earlier, inbreeding mechanics only affecting stats does contrast the many elements of realism that Wolvden has incorporated into gameplay. There are many examples of wolves who breed in limited gene pools, such as the Wolves of Isle Royal, who have suffered extreme health problems and deformities as a consequence of repetitive and close inbreeding. But for fairness's sake, people can and should play the game how they want. A stat penalty starting out at 5% and capping out at 20% can act in place of those natural repercussions without stressing herbalists or setting a limited life span for those who simply aren't concerned with clean lines or stats. This added feature will not create a difference in the pursuit of breeding projects that are not involving stats or clean lines. It will not interfere with your breeding project goals and will give you wolves that can lead, hunt, scout, heal, and be productive members of your pack! I would love to hear any feedback, thoughts, questions, or concerns about this proposal!	fairyfox ˚₊‧꒰ა 𓃦 ໒꒱ ‧₊˚ #1644

Posted 2022-05-06 09:37:45

#740884

Inbreeding Mechanics

Hellooo! So I proposed an idea along these lines back during beta testing and I wanted it give it a second shot now. Back then the site got reloaded quite a bit and the idea got lost and I've also changed my mind on some things! I'm curious to see what other people's perspectives are now that breeding lines are growing longer and inbreeding is becoming more prevalent.

This proposal is based in two different suggestions for inbreeding mechanics.

#1. For inbreeding percentages and possible instances of inbreeding become available to view in wolves' family trees + in scrying.

If it is possible to code, I would prefer to have both the percent of inbreeding as well as number of instances of inbreeding displayed.

#2. That inbred wolves receive a slight decrease in stat inheritance based on how high their percentage of inbreeding is.

I propose a 5% decrease in stat inheritance for anything above 1 instance of inbreeding. This could gradually increase but should not be drastic and should never exceed a maximum of a 20% stat penalty (which would only apply in extreme cases of more than 15-25 instances of inbreeding or like 75% of inbreeding, I'm up to debate on what numbers we think is excessive inbreeding and what we think of the "base penalty" percentage.)

Here's why the would be a good thing:

Support for #1
It will help players keep track of their family lines. As family trees grow longer here, it is starting to take some thoughtful review to be able to determine if a wolf beyond generation 8 is inbred in the first place, let alone if breeding them to another wolf with the same length of bloodlines could be inbreeding. It would be a very helpful game mechanic to be able to check your wolf's family tree and see its inbreeding (for example, 30% inbred and 2 instances of possible inbreeding). It would be incredibly helpful if this could be checked through scrying pairs before breeding as well to see what the puppies would have. This would expand upon existing mechanics in-game to look at heritage and be very helpful!

Support for #2
It will help prevent the creation of long-standing stat monopolies. Promoting genetic diversity = promoting market diversity, which means players will be incentivized to breed to more than just the same 4 studs who dominate the leaderboards. While this site is not Lioden, it is a sister site, and this has been a problem on there. Because of the two site's similar breeding mechanics and shared player base it's likely that Wolvden can follow in the pawprints of Lioden history in the future. As someone who used to breed for stats on Lioden, it became impossible to find studs high on the leaderboard that were not inbred themselves or related to my lions. Everyone has the right to pursue their own breeding projects and play the game how they want, but it became a problem beyond limiting the capacity of clean line stat projects. Myself and others found that we were breeding to the same few people over and over again to raise our stat game, and while that was our choice, there was no real way to compete or "catch up" stats wise as the profits from their breedings ensured their heirs would step far above what anyone else could achieve within reasonable measures (which admittedly is an awesome accomplishment!).

A slight stat decrease in inheritance based on inbreeding will still give the same opportunities to people who thrive at the top of the leaderboards for generations, but will also create greater opportunity for others to accomplish those same goals by preventing the creation of a huge gap. This will increase the circulation of currency and goods to even more players who are both on and off the leaderboards. It is a minimal mechanic to discourage excessive repeats in a gentle way and can help address a problem before it arises through something that'll benefit others widely while have a very limited effect on those who have goals that do not align with stats or clean lines.

Now to address the question of how this will impact people who don't breed for stats or clean lines!

It would be unfair to suggest that inbred members of packs should have extreme health issues and birth deformities/mutations should not be related to any inbreeding mechanics in my opinion, so while that may be realism and would fit in with the game elements I have excluded it from my suggestion based on previous feedback from when I posted about this during beta testing. Since the penalty will be starting off very minimal and be capped at a max of a 20% decrease in stat inheritance only at a point of excessive inbreeding (open to debate about the 15-25 instances or 75 percent as what we define as excessive).

People who only breed their pack wolves to their own pack stud instead of outside bloodlines will also not experience a major difference in gameplay even if they choose to do so for as long as the play the game, this is why I included the idea of a "cap" and kept the percentages of penalty low. They will be able to keep raising their stats by leveling up, even after reaching the cap penalty through excessive inbreeding.

As stated earlier, inbreeding mechanics only affecting stats does contrast the many elements of realism that Wolvden has incorporated into gameplay. There are many examples of wolves who breed in limited gene pools, such as the Wolves of Isle Royal, who have suffered extreme health problems and deformities as a consequence of repetitive and close inbreeding. But for fairness's sake, people can and should play the game how they want. A stat penalty starting out at 5% and capping out at 20% can act in place of those natural repercussions without stressing herbalists or setting a limited life span for those who simply aren't concerned with clean lines or stats. This added feature will not create a difference in the pursuit of breeding projects that are not involving stats or clean lines. It will not interfere with your breeding project goals and will give you wolves that can lead, hunt, scout, heal, and be productive members of your pack!

I would love to hear any feedback, thoughts, questions, or concerns about this proposal!

fairyfox ˚₊‧꒰ა 𓃦 ໒꒱ ‧₊˚
#1644

Posted 2022-05-06 09:46:48

#740898

ive been saying this since joining back in october! it would make it so much easier than having to go through a wolves lineage to check for inbreeding, especially on those with more than 5 generations (like, i know his lineage is atrocious, i just wanna know how bad it is) im all for this idea!!

merry pipmas
#49898

Posted 2022-05-06 09:50:01 (edited)

#740903

Thank you Pip!!! And wow what an example of how tricky it's getting to track

omg

fairyfox ˚₊‧꒰ა 𓃦 ໒꒱ ‧₊˚
#1644

Posted 2022-05-06 14:20:19

#741245

I would rather not have repercussions of any sort for inbreeding (especially not stat). I breed for stats. Lineage doesn't matter to me so much, and I have no desire to have to pick through long lineages (even if your suggestion is done, that doesn't mean there will be something to help pick a pairing that won't be inbred) just to make sure my pups won't lose out on stats. Especially not a chance of up to 20%! I do try to avoid inbreeding in general since it is so unpopular, but I don't want to look past the first page of wolves in the lineage.
Besides, since inbred wolves are rather disliked by the community based on my observations (NBWs seem to be the most popular), why penalize them even more? The community as a whole seems to regulate inbred wolves quite well without mechanics being implemented.
This suggestion would make the game feel more like a chore to me, and the disappointment if I did end up inbreeding and my pups took a stat hit...

Now, the ability to see the inbreeding of a wolf doesn't bother me, so I would be fine with that being implemented. I just don't want to be penalized for something that is not super high on my 'care about' list.

Sepulchre
#33572

Posted 2022-05-23 20:58:36

#756544

No support for stat penalties to inbreeding, as there's almost no motive to linebreed for stats in the first place and it won't impact "top players" stats-wise. The "maintenance" point, where you get almost no improvement from generation to generation of stat breeding, can be reached within about 5? generations, from what I've seen. The gains from gen to gen for leads are almost entirely based on how much you grind an individual lead - at a certain point there's comparatively little to gain from your lead's parents compared to straight up just grinding with your current lead.

Support for an inbreeding counter/display of some kind, I think it would help longer lined wolves have more appeal. Right now it's pretty much low gen vs long line with probable inbreeding and NIB players just go with the low gen bc it's so hard to keep track of.

I don't personally think there are any inbreeding/not-inbreeding penalties or benefits that would be good to implement now that the game is established, although I would've supported adding some before launch for closely related wolves. :s

unsknown
#21142

Posted 2022-05-23 21:06:41

#756546

It would be nice to have a COI % for sure, but im just not sure how it could be coded especially for wolves that have lineages that progress past what can be displayed. The vast number of wolves that are on site would make it a massive undertaking.

ComplacentDevil
#68350

Posted 2022-05-23 21:34:45

#756556

I would support being able to check the percentages but I do not support the stat penalities as it would affect those not going for clean lines

Watersnake
#29556

Posted 2022-05-23 22:21:43

#756561

I support checking inbred %, but I'm going to vote oppose button because of the inbreeding stat decrease. I have bad experiences and negative emotions with inbreeding consequences in games, which I rant/explain about below in the spoiler if anyone wishes to read. The only negative side consequence of inbreeding I'd consider supporting is higher mutation rates in pups, but even then someone who doesn't care about inbreeding would probably be really sad if most/all the pups in a litter got fatal mutations due to there being much inbred in the parents' lineage. I know some people breed specifically for mutes, hence the desire to lower female's fertility. Inbred wolves having a higher chance for mutations is realistic, yet, most people would probably care more for clean lineages than an inbred mutie, so there's no real win for that inbreeding penalty either.

In another favorite game of mine, there are some inbreeding challenges where you a: try to get parents to produce specific-looking offspring, like in animal breeds, and b: to have a 100+ inbreeding line. Recently they added in penalties for inbreeding... Although it seemed "small," I was very disappointed. I don't play pet breeding games to be realistic to inbreeding and have repercussions; I play pet breeding games to breed and get cute babies. I don't think I've managed to inbreed any of my wolves (yet), but if I did I'd be real irritated if my for-my-enjoyment-only inbred wolves got nerfed.

Another game I used to love, but quit due to it being essentially pay-to-play, would NOT let you inbreed at all. It seemed okay enough if you got some breeding pairs that made nice offspring, but it was kinda annoying to get two different pets from two different players to breed only to find out... they can't breed. They're related but you can't see it in their immediate pedigree. Sometimes it's because their mom's brother is the great-grandfather of the other pet! But you can't see it on the pedigree so you have to search religiously to figure out HOW they're related.
Now, the inability to inbreed really sucked when you were creating a project with mutations you spliced onto the unhatched offspring. This means that, if you wanted to create a pet that had four mutations, you'd need to generate (which costs up to 20 currency that's not easy to get), 32 adults; more if the colors came out wrong. Next you'd need to hope all the offspring came out the right gender, as it also costs quite a bit to put a mutation in each egg, especially since each mute could be a different cost, so on and so forth.

The second spoilered issue isn't related to the inbreeding in this game, but inbreeding consequences make me so mad from dealing with that. I can understand and respect if people don't want to inbreed/acquire inbred wolves, but I don't think it's fair to impose inbred penalties and consequences upon those who don't mind the inbreeding.

Sunny
#30082

Posted 2022-05-29 04:17:19

#760743

Scry for inbreeding? yes definitely it'll be great for players like me that wanna avoid it

penalties for inbreeding? if it were just for me as a player i would agree, ide love that extra challenge. BUT looking out for the overal health of the game, no absolutely not players right now are already extremely hyper focused on lineages, trying to keep the cleanest most shortest lineages possible, adding this would enforce this behaviour and that would honestly be pretty bad pushing wolvden further into becoming a game about keeping and breeding wolves except you dont breed them

Derpy
#6646

Inbreeding Mechanics

Inbreeding Mechanics

This proposal is based in two different suggestions for inbreeding mechanics.

#1. For inbreeding percentages and possible instances of inbreeding become available to view in wolves' family trees + in scrying.

#2. That inbred wolves receive a slight decrease in stat inheritance based on how high their percentage of inbreeding is.

Here's why the would be a good thing:

Now to address the question of how this will impact people who don't breed for stats or clean lines!

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