[Custom Decor] Custom Decor System Needs Reform

[Custom Decor] Custom Decor System Needs Reform
Posted 2023-03-29 12:04:46 (edited) #986826 Hey folks! I am revising my suggestions based on the conversations that have happened in this thread (specifically this reply). I apologize to those who already voted, but some players have made some very good points and I think it's really important to restructure my argument to reflect a compromise that will (ideally) make all of us happy. You can change or withdraw your vote if you no longer agree with my points. Thank you for understanding. Revised Post The custom decor system is inconsistent & lacking in clarity and transparency. There is no one to contact about custom decors who will reply in a timely manner, ~~making Modboxing the only option for custom decor questions and concerns~~, and giving virtually 0 way for the artist to ask clarifying questions about the given criticism when their work is rejected. (Update as of July 10, 2023 - custom decor related questions and concerns can no longer be submitted to or handled by Modbox. There is now no reliable way to contact anyone regarding custom decors.) It doesn't make sense that some decors get rejected for being too sharp/pixelated and yet others are accepted despite being very sharp/pixelated. It doesn't make sense that some decors get rejected for not matching the art style closely enough and yet others are accepted despite not matching the style very well at all. Further, the custom decor rules are unclear and not consistently adhered to by the head artists. It says in the rules that minor modifications won't be accepted, yet we have dozens of minor modification decors such as eye recolors/gradients/enhancers, scars and numerous fur extensions that have been accepted with no issue. The custom decor tutorial is not specific enough and also has some contradictions. For example, the tutorial thread says "if you wanted lineart... there is no lineart" which is plainly untrue. All wolves, items etc. in the game have clearly visible off-black outlines - therefore all custom decors need to have them, too. There is a lineart layer if you inspect and pull apart the layers of your wolf. A specific hex code is even given for the lineart color (#080707) so this just contradicts itself all in all. Submissions are currently not reviewed in chronological order. I will frequently have one decor get rejected within a couple of days, and another will sit for 3 weeks before getting rejected, even though I submitted it before the first decor. With the way it's currently set up, sometimes my customers have to wait multiple months to actually get their decors. Solutions • Creating more consistency and clarity with the CD rules. • Creating an updated CD tutorial that is more clear and specific. • Creating detailed, codified, and highly specific requirements for custom decors so we know exactly what is expected of us as CD artists. • Training the CD reviewers thoroughly on these requirements so there is less inconsistency between what gets approved and what gets rejected. • Giving us some people we can reach out to with our CD questions and concerns - the people we are told to contact about custom decors don't usually respond to messages, and it seems silly to have to Modbox every single question. If the head artists are too busy with other duties, that's understandable, but we still need people who can respond to us in a timely manner. (Update as of July 10, 2023 - custom decor related questions and concerns can no longer be submitted to or handled by Modbox) • Working in chronological order when reviewing decors. • Being transparent about which head artist is reviewing which decors and who the feedback is being provided by. This will help reveal any biases or inconsistencies. OR having decor submissions be anonymous during the review process to eliminate any discrimination and bias (suggested by Shunkana #110039) Original post, in the interest of transparency: TLDR: Stop gatekeeping the custom decor world so hard. Let people submit things that don't perfectly match the game style. Stop arguing with established CD artists over miniscule details. A vote of support on this thread means "YES, let's loosen up the custom decor rules!" I am a custom decor artist. IRL, I have been an artist for over a decade. I have 40+ approved decors at the time of posting. Yet, pretty much every single decor I submit, the head artists reject it for tiny reasons. Often they tell me I need to make it blurrier, so my decors end up much blurrier and much less detailed than many of the other CDs that are available. It's gotten to the point where I am feeling unfairly targeted and my clients can't understand why I am being singled out like this, so I reached out to the head artists about it, hoping we could work something out. But my messages have all been ignored. Several months ago, Wolvden's community of custom decor artists took a stand against how extremely difficult it is to meet Wolvden's very specific and frequently inconsistent standards for custom decors. As a result, Wolvden hosted a poll asking if they should loosen up on these standards, and the result was in favor of loosening the rules (614 people voted to loosen the rules; 578 had no opinion; 325 voted to keep the requirements as they are). So only 20% of voters were actually opposed to letting up on the requirements. Yet, there is no evidence that this loosening of the rules was ever implemented. In fact, I have had more trouble getting decors approved since this change. It is beyond pedantic at this point. They are consistently and repeatedly rejecting my decors over the smallest things that most people wouldn't even notice. My customers and I are so sick of it. By the time most of my decors finally get approved, they have lost most of their details. Yet other artists are allowed to submit extremely detailed pieces with no issue. So, what's the solution? STOP with all of this nonsense. I see no real reason why it needs to be this strict. If my customer is happy with the artwork I provided them, then that should be the end of the story. If I, as a professional artist, have met my own personal standards, then that should be the end of the story. I'm not saying my work is perfect by any means, but I find it really wears me down to have my work rejected over and over and over again because of the most insignificant reasons. Honestly, artist-to-artist, it feels disrespectful. Maybe it's not anything personal, but surely one can empathize and understand how frustrating this is for us CD artists. Pros: - More people will be able to submit CDs, so the community of artists will grow, and the community overall will flourish - Less work for the head artists if they aren't arguing with people over every tiny little detail (they can focus more on event art and other artwork for the site) - More diversity, creativity and uniqueness in the available CDs - More revenue for Wolvden (more CD artists = more CD creator items being purchased = more people buying GC to purchase CD creator items & more people buying GC to purchase custom decors) Cons: - Some people might see it as a con to have inconsistent styles and qualities of custom decors available in the game. I personally don't see how this is an issue. If you don't like a decor, or it isn't the style you prefer, simply don't buy it. Not to mention, the existing pool of CDs is already extremely inconsistent because of the inconsistency with what gets approved and what gets rejected. As it is, there is no such thing as a consistent 'standard' for CD artists - it is literally a toss of a coin every time. - Read Phyrric's opposition here I am very open to hearing what others have to say about this topic. Please keep things civil and polite. Thank you for reading!	mercurie #35270

Posted 2023-03-29 12:04:46 (edited)

#986826

Hey folks! I am revising my suggestions based on the conversations that have happened in this thread (specifically this reply). I apologize to those who already voted, but some players have made some very good points and I think it's really important to restructure my argument to reflect a compromise that will (ideally) make all of us happy. You can change or withdraw your vote if you no longer agree with my points. Thank you for understanding.

Revised Post

The custom decor system is inconsistent & lacking in clarity and transparency. There is no one to contact about custom decors who will reply in a timely manner, ~~making Modboxing the only option for custom decor questions and concerns~~, and giving virtually 0 way for the artist to ask clarifying questions about the given criticism when their work is rejected. (Update as of July 10, 2023 - custom decor related questions and concerns can no longer be submitted to or handled by Modbox. There is now no reliable way to contact anyone regarding custom decors.)

It doesn't make sense that some decors get rejected for being too sharp/pixelated and yet others are accepted despite being very sharp/pixelated. It doesn't make sense that some decors get rejected for not matching the art style closely enough and yet others are accepted despite not matching the style very well at all.

Further, the custom decor rules are unclear and not consistently adhered to by the head artists. It says in the rules that minor modifications won't be accepted, yet we have dozens of minor modification decors such as eye recolors/gradients/enhancers, scars and numerous fur extensions that have been accepted with no issue.

The custom decor tutorial is not specific enough and also has some contradictions. For example, the tutorial thread says "if you wanted lineart... there is no lineart" which is plainly untrue. All wolves, items etc. in the game have clearly visible off-black outlines - therefore all custom decors need to have them, too. There is a lineart layer if you inspect and pull apart the layers of your wolf. A specific hex code is even given for the lineart color (#080707) so this just contradicts itself all in all.

Submissions are currently not reviewed in chronological order. I will frequently have one decor get rejected within a couple of days, and another will sit for 3 weeks before getting rejected, even though I submitted it before the first decor. With the way it's currently set up, sometimes my customers have to wait multiple months to actually get their decors.

Solutions
• Creating more consistency and clarity with the CD rules.
• Creating an updated CD tutorial that is more clear and specific.
• Creating detailed, codified, and highly specific requirements for custom decors so we know exactly what is expected of us as CD artists.
• Training the CD reviewers thoroughly on these requirements so there is less inconsistency between what gets approved and what gets rejected.
• Giving us some people we can reach out to with our CD questions and concerns - the people we are told to contact about custom decors don't usually respond to messages, and it seems silly to have to Modbox every single question. If the head artists are too busy with other duties, that's understandable, but we still need people who can respond to us in a timely manner. (Update as of July 10, 2023 - custom decor related questions and concerns can no longer be submitted to or handled by Modbox)
• Working in chronological order when reviewing decors.
• Being transparent about which head artist is reviewing which decors and who the feedback is being provided by. This will help reveal any biases or inconsistencies. OR having decor submissions be anonymous during the review process to eliminate any discrimination and bias (suggested by Shunkana #110039)

Original post, in the interest of transparency:

TLDR: Stop gatekeeping the custom decor world so hard. Let people submit things that don't perfectly match the game style. Stop arguing with established CD artists over miniscule details.

A vote of support on this thread means "YES, let's loosen up the custom decor rules!"

I am a custom decor artist. IRL, I have been an artist for over a decade. I have 40+ approved decors at the time of posting. Yet, pretty much every single decor I submit, the head artists reject it for tiny reasons. Often they tell me I need to make it blurrier, so my decors end up much blurrier and much less detailed than many of the other CDs that are available. It's gotten to the point where I am feeling unfairly targeted and my clients can't understand why I am being singled out like this, so I reached out to the head artists about it, hoping we could work something out. But my messages have all been ignored.

Several months ago, Wolvden's community of custom decor artists took a stand against how extremely difficult it is to meet Wolvden's very specific and frequently inconsistent standards for custom decors. As a result, Wolvden hosted a poll asking if they should loosen up on these standards, and the result was in favor of loosening the rules (614 people voted to loosen the rules; 578 had no opinion; 325 voted to keep the requirements as they are). So only 20% of voters were actually opposed to letting up on the requirements.

Yet, there is no evidence that this loosening of the rules was ever implemented. In fact, I have had more trouble getting decors approved since this change. It is beyond pedantic at this point. They are consistently and repeatedly rejecting my decors over the smallest things that most people wouldn't even notice. My customers and I are so sick of it. By the time most of my decors finally get approved, they have lost most of their details. Yet other artists are allowed to submit extremely detailed pieces with no issue.

So, what's the solution?
STOP with all of this nonsense. I see no real reason why it needs to be this strict. If my customer is happy with the artwork I provided them, then that should be the end of the story. If I, as a professional artist, have met my own personal standards, then that should be the end of the story. I'm not saying my work is perfect by any means, but I find it really wears me down to have my work rejected over and over and over again because of the most insignificant reasons. Honestly, artist-to-artist, it feels disrespectful. Maybe it's not anything personal, but surely one can empathize and understand how frustrating this is for us CD artists.

Pros:
- More people will be able to submit CDs, so the community of artists will grow, and the community overall will flourish
- Less work for the head artists if they aren't arguing with people over every tiny little detail (they can focus more on event art and other artwork for the site)
- More diversity, creativity and uniqueness in the available CDs
- More revenue for Wolvden (more CD artists = more CD creator items being purchased = more people buying GC to purchase CD creator items & more people buying GC to purchase custom decors)

Cons:
- Some people might see it as a con to have inconsistent styles and qualities of custom decors available in the game. I personally don't see how this is an issue. If you don't like a decor, or it isn't the style you prefer, simply don't buy it.

Not to mention, the existing pool of CDs is already extremely inconsistent because of the inconsistency with what gets approved and what gets rejected. As it is, there is no such thing as a consistent 'standard' for CD artists - it is literally a toss of a coin every time.
- Read Phyrric's opposition here

I am very open to hearing what others have to say about this topic. Please keep things civil and polite. Thank you for reading!

mercurie
#35270

Posted 2023-03-29 14:26:53

#986910

I've had two decors on Lioden be rejected for extremely tiny reasons post this change (it was changed on Lioden too)... The kicker? They're BOTH RECOLORS of a decor that has already been accepted before. TWICE.

Thalath
#2575

Posted 2023-04-04 09:16:50

#989822

Support. In CD Discord servers everyone raises complaints about the unfairness of the current system. Not only are there constant complaints about rejected decor, many feel that the 5gc fee on CD is unfair to the artist, given that they are doing Wolvden a favor by contributing to the community and lessening the stress on the art team by doing so.

Koi (They/Them)
#45041

Posted 2023-04-04 09:45:21

#989844

You bring up a good point, Mobolite. When I first joined, 1 GC was worth around 60 SC. Since that time it has increased literally tenfold (just the other day I sold a GC for 600 SC), so maybe it's time to reconsider or lower the fee.

mercurie
#35270

Posted 2023-04-04 10:26:39

#989855

I am a custom decor artists and often take commissions for custom decor. I have made about 5 pages worth of custom decors (I'm too lazy to count

). I have complained in and out about rejections and said time and time again I will stop drawing decors because of the struggle.

But, that being said. I oppose this.

It may sound crazy. I know. But! These harsh rejections, though causing me a lot of frustration, have made me absolutely flourish as an artist. As well as made many commissioners much happier with my work. I think Wolvden's standard for custom decor has been lowered quite a bit with the recent loosening of their rules. I've had a much easier time getting decors accepted after it, so for me at least there was a clear change.

I feel if the standard would be reduced much further, the Wolvden style would be lost to custom decors. Seeing decors that don't match the Wolvden art style, at least mostly, would make the game seem a whole lot messier and almost unfinished. I, and I'm sure many players, prefer games to LOOK consistent. Just as you expect other games to. If I saw Wolvden as a new player with such a wavering art style I likely wouldn't have played the game.

I think rejection in the end is a necessary evil. Humans improve from criticism and to be completely free of such creates a mess. Improvement is much harder when everyone's telling you your art is perfect.

I have a plethora of examples but I'll use these two, the decors I've struggled most with forefront.

My cowboy decor is one of my first, but doesn't appear as such because it took so long to get accepted. I can't count the amount of rejections I received on this decor. But, looking back on what it was compared to what it is shows many of its flaws.
It was untextured, unshaded, pixelated, and even uncolored in spots. It didn't fit the games style at all. But through many of rejection I improved greatly, making the decor not only fit the style much better but look better in general.

My male zebra finch decor is what I used to call the hardest decor I encountered. When I finished, both me and it's commissioner were happy with it. Then it got rejected. I became unhappy with it and tried many of times to fix it before deciding to redo it completely. The unshaded, pixelated mess of a "bird" became a decor in which I can truly be proud of.

This wasn't meant to be this long, but I do feel very strongly towards keeping the level of custom decor rejection in Wolvden.

There is plenty more to be said about the inconsistency in custom decor rejection. It is a problem to be addressed. But it's not a problem that can be solved simply by removing rejections in general. It may to some be seen as "disrespectful" or "painful" but throughout my time I've learned to greatly appreciate it and the skill it has made me develop.
As well as a quick add on, custom decor is optional. Just as leader board stats, cool bases, and low gen wolves are. I've learned through my time in Wolvden what I'm willing to put my energy into. Just as taking your time/GC to grind your wolves stats onto the leader board, drawing art high enough quality to be accepted into the game takes effort.

It is no small feat to get YOUR own art into a whole ass game, and removing the standard would remove a lot of the satisfaction on top of general quality. Challenges are what makes many things worth it, and the feeling of finally getting a stubborn decor up to the standard and accepted is like no other.

This was certainly a mess but I hope I got my point across well enough

Phyrric
#52536

Posted 2023-04-04 10:37:20

#989862

I totally see your point Phyrric! I truly appreciate the time and effort that you have put into your response; it is very thoughtful and articulate. And in fact, it has me questioning my entire stance now

I have a great deal of respect and admiration for your custom decor artwork and I own many of your decors myself. So I am definitely going to mull this over in my mind!

mercurie
#35270

Posted 2023-04-04 10:45:25

#989870

Thank you so much!

I hope I in no way seem to ignore the problems there are in the process of creating custom decor. Because believe me, I've felt that pain and I understand how difficult it can seem with the inconsistencies in accepting/rejecting. I just wanted to be sure people also consider the other side of the coin. And maybe even consider that there might be a better way to combat such than just freely opening it up

Phyrric
#52536

Posted 2023-04-04 10:54:18

#989875

And maybe even consider that there might be a better way to combat such than just freely opening it up

I'm really interested to hear your ideas on what else we can do to address the issues within the CD system! I'm personally still feeling frustrated with the inconsistencies, e.g. the head artists constantly telling me I need to make things blurrier when other much sharper and more detailed decors get accepted with no issues

mercurie
#35270

Posted 2023-04-04 11:09:11

#989893

I believe the point of this forum suggestion isn´t to have the restrictions removed completely, but to address that there definitely is an unfair way of viewing peoples art in the CD world. There obviously has to be some restrictions, because through those we learn and improve our art... but it is also very important to remember that we ALL have different art styles. We all have a way we see our decor and want to keep a signature piece of that in our art. I see a lot of the same between some artists, some really really amazing art, decors that get accepted almost instantly and then sometime later a different artist submits a decor of the same "quality" and it is rejected. Either for being too sharp or too detailed.. even when art way more detailed has been accepted just some time before. I don´t dabble much in CD creation myself, but I know some CD artists, and I have commissioned decor before. I can definitely see what Mercurie is pointing at with this suggestion.

And yes, decors may be optional.. making them, commissioning them etc, but sometimes you really want to share your art, or you really want to make that wolf - it sucks to have that stopped because "your art is not good enough" when it is by tenfolds worth just as much. I very much would not have an issue with *some* inconsistencies in the art. Opening the restrictions to fit peoples art styles a little more I think would spark more motivation and interest in decors. Where some see it would "mess up" the consistency I see it as an opportunity to recruit more people into art making (maybe).

𓃦 𝐓𝐲 || ❄️
#52743

Posted 2023-04-04 11:15:49 (edited)

#989896

Quick edit: was replying to mercurie

Now THAT I agree with.

I've seen some decors that are horribly pixelated (recent decors at that) when mine have been rejected for the same thing. I've seen friends decors get rejected for too thin lineart, mine have been rejected for too thick, and there have been previous accepted decors that have had the same issues. I think a fix would just be more thorough evaluations and more written guidelines for decor. I can't exactly say favoritism/opinions go into what gets accepted, but I can certainly put the idea out there.

I've seen decors in the past with color leaking out of line art and whole non-transparent images. Hell, I've uploaded a decor or two that haven't even been lined up correctly! It's always human to make mistakes, (and of course I message anyone with such to let them know) but isn't that why we have the safety net of a rejection system? All previously mentioned decors were accepted. It just seems we can't rely on the system currently and it could use some fixing from the INSIDE. Possibly more thorough training for the people who accept them or more attention paid to detail.

Phyrric
#52536

[Custom Decor] Custom Decor System Needs Reform

Revised Post

Original post, in the interest of transparency:

Activity

Activity